tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post6474763607930846399..comments2024-03-24T12:20:39.636-04:00Comments on Lindsay's Logic: Sunday School Fairy Tales (or Why the Bible Should be Taught as History)Lindsay Haroldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13094965953749825163noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-86149404501387621262015-11-05T21:43:54.114-05:002015-11-05T21:43:54.114-05:00Re: sensational-ization. The problem actually is o...Re: sensational-ization. The problem actually is on a very fine scale, and complex. We do not always automatically see where to divide a Biblical account in the way it was intended. We might oversimplify it, seeing some of its features as the sole hinges on which it turns.<br /><br />But many Biblical accounts were intended in a much more complementarian, holistic, integrated way, with no simplistic ‘hinges’. This integration seems to be that of Genesis 22.<br /><br />But a typical reading of Gen 22 assumes that it hinges on God’s praising Abraham for 'obeying' God's 'voice' (vs 18). This non-integrative reading renders God as teaching us that God required of Abraham (and, by extension, of us) an unreasoning, impulsively blind, irrationally loyal, essentially legalistic assent to God's verbatim. <br /><br />This ‘locally hinged’ reading of Gen 22 comes out in debates as "God said so, so I'm right and you're wrong", or "The Bible says so, so I'm right and you're rebellious", end of discussion. In personal thought, it comes out as a rigidity born of intellectual insecurity and inexperience, and reinforces itself like an intellectual form of panic.<br /><br />Thus, even when Hebrews 11:17-19 is taken into account, many people may simply think that Abraham's reasoning was just an added benefit to, or even reward for, what seems to have been, on his part, an impulsively irrational compliance to God's verbatim.<br /><br />But if we take all of Abraham's prior responses to God into account, then it is not a necessary conclusion to think that Gen 22 renders Abraham just suddenly breaking from all his prior commitments to a carefully rational (if sometimes mistaken) response to God. In fact, if the whole point of the test was as Hebrews 11:19 seems to indicate, then, given all of Abraham's prior responses to God, it is mostly likely that Abraham's initial response to God's request was *not* that of a pro-wrestler's "Bu-yah" kind of impulsively blind obedience (as in, "I will rejoice in my toughness by obeying this crazy request against all my better judgment").<br /><br />Many Christians assume that Abraham was an ethical-moral Everyman. So they cite Hebrews 11:17-19 to bolster the view that God’s purpose in praising Abraham in Gen 22:18 was implicitly to command humans to have an unreasoning faith in God’s verbatim. However, the Hebrews passage addresses merely the spiritually positive lessons of Gen 22, specifically by explicating Abraham’s own point of view. And that passage does not address God’s point of view in praising Abraham for ‘obeying’ God’s ‘voice’.<br /><br />G. K. Beale says, ‘there is always a related range of meaning that appropriately is an expansion of the explicit meaning’ of any assertion in the Biblical text. Beale explains, ‘All speakers and writers are aware of more than what they are directly saying in their speech’ or in their writing. (((G. K. Beale, 2014, ‘The Cognitive Peripheral Vision of Biblical Authors’, Westminster Theological Journal 76: 263-93, pg. 265))).<br /><br />Accordingly, the letter is not the spirit, and thus God’s praise of Abraham in Gen 22:18 is not motivated by legalism and an *pre-hoc, post-justified* analogy-ism to the future Christ.<br /><br />As the book of Job teaches, we ever are to allow for the existence and actions of a certain third party. But Job was the Everyman. There is no indication that Abraham was; we just tend to assume he was.<br /><br />If Abraham really was a ‘cultural Christian’ in all points of moral understanding, then, unlike for Job’s test, God would not have had occasion to cause Abraham to think that God wanted him to engage in child sacrifice.<br /><br />Abraham, by any of the roots of paganism that still lived in him, would have been wide open to the suggestion that an innocent child might rightly be sacrificed, if only the god to whom the sacrifice was made would, and could, simply give the child’s life back.Daniel-OmniLinguahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09384266627641830095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-19585819716165637412015-10-16T08:21:26.993-04:002015-10-16T08:21:26.993-04:001) It doesn't actually say David killed the li...1) It doesn't actually say David killed the lion and bear with his bare hands. Try reading it again. It says he "smote" it, which could mean killing it with a club or a sword. Nowhere does this require bare hands. It does seem to indicate that perhaps he grabbed the lion by its mane while killing it, but there is no reason to think this was all done with hands only.<br /><br />2) This is intended to be a historical account, not a parable. The context makes that clear.<br /><br />3) Not everything in the Bible can be verified by external verification. But where it can be, it has been. In no case has it been proven false. Thus, it is reasonable to believe it to be an accurate historical record.<br /><br />4) This belief based on known reliability is faith. Faith isn't a leap in the dark, in spite of evidence to the contrary. Faith is a rational placing of trust in something shown to be trustworthy. Only in very recent years has the church in some places embraced an idea of "faith" as being opposed to evidence and reason. This modern definition of "faith" is not what the Bible teaches faith to be.Lindsay Haroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13094965953749825163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-40699024345543158382015-10-15T23:41:03.206-04:002015-10-15T23:41:03.206-04:00by all means teach fairy tales and bible stories. ...by all means teach fairy tales and bible stories. David killed a lion and a bear with his bare hands ...that statement right there lets you know this is a parable and not to be taken literally .... don't make the mistake so many Christians do of thinking that most of the Bible can be found to have historical evidence to back it up.<br /> If that were the case one would not require faith to believeJimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07550764110554339416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-77605782391426896122015-09-30T11:42:00.994-04:002015-09-30T11:42:00.994-04:00You only left out one point, that I can see. That...You only left out one point, that I can see. That point being the age of the children being taught. As non-professional educators, in many cases, the Sunday school teachers depend on the teacher manual to tell us what to teach. So it is very important for the church to pay great attention to the teachers materials. Also for the Sunday school teacher to be up to speed on the mental age of the class. For example, the very young take everything literally. Therefore take home papers and materials are quite important in imprinting the truth of the Bible story on them when they share it with their parents. Your article here is everything good to consider while teaching Sunday school. It is not a calling to be sloughed off until Saturday night. [Grammy]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-27842844593381550872012-06-03T15:40:46.038-04:002012-06-03T15:40:46.038-04:00Forgot to mention that this is exactly why I never...Forgot to mention that this is exactly why I never let my children watch Veggie Tales!! It just seemed to trivialize the real men and women of the Bible into a silly cartoon.busymomof10https://www.blogger.com/profile/16801397516931688515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-35593822248448778402012-06-01T13:40:16.541-04:002012-06-01T13:40:16.541-04:00Fabulous Post!! I totally agree!
A turning point...Fabulous Post!! I totally agree!<br /><br />A turning point for me, personally, was learning that the Bible was more than a collection of outdated Bible stories, but that it contains PRINCIPLES for living that apply to us today! I was certainly brought up on Bible stories in Sunday School.<br /><br />One mistake perpetuated in Bible story books is that Noah had to capture the animals, when actually God BROUGHT the animals to Noah! Of course, there are many others, as well, that I am learning as an adult!<br /><br />Very insightful post!busymomof10https://www.blogger.com/profile/16801397516931688515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-67994457432479637232012-06-01T07:15:23.124-04:002012-06-01T07:15:23.124-04:00Wow!!! Thank you for this post! I am a Sunday Sc...Wow!!! Thank you for this post! I am a Sunday School teacher and am currently preparing new curriculum for our church. You have given me A LOT to think about. Thank you so very much for such a well thought-out and truthful post about the Bible and helping us all to move past the idea of it being a book of fairytales to it being the inspired Word of God filled with actual accounts of actual events that happened. Hopping over from Life in Bloom. A Little R & R http://jukiczr.blogspot.comRosilind Jukichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08304788871235090080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-33264181149312736172012-05-31T14:35:57.608-04:002012-05-31T14:35:57.608-04:00Thank you for this post! Perhaps it is okay to ca...Thank you for this post! Perhaps it is okay to call them stories because they are stories - true non-fiction stories. And maybe we should take the time to read them from the Bible and dissect them with our children.<br /><br />But most importantly, like someone else commented, many adults do not know the true accounts of many of the "stories." Oh that we would want to know and seek truth so it can be applied like a salve to our weary hearts.Jamie S. Harperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04998194307468998217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-16478759211920863742012-05-30T20:16:47.426-04:002012-05-30T20:16:47.426-04:00Totally agree ... I teach Jr. Church to 2 - 6 year...Totally agree ... I teach Jr. Church to 2 - 6 year olds, and I'm most empahtic about correcting errors of how old a person is .. and comparing the correct age to people the kids know in the church. They got quite a laugh out of the picture of our oldest church members having a baby ...<br /><br />And I always emphasize that it is true history.<br /><br />When we study History in our home school, I always have them read the relevant Bible passages right along with the historical period that we are studying. It's extra work, but my older 2 girls have a great understanding of where the Bible fits into the past. I'm looking forward to teaching my nearly 7 year old and 2 year old as they begin to learn History. I've got 2 high schoolers and 2 just starting school. I'm hoping I learned from the mistakes I made with the oldest 2.EagleNestMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00900856491721862555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-55229889171653746072012-05-30T16:06:07.984-04:002012-05-30T16:06:07.984-04:00It is tricky to refrain from saying "Bible st...It is tricky to refrain from saying "Bible stories." I have to watch myself too. But it's well worth adjusting our speech to make the point that the Bible is not simply a story.<br /><br />As for how to separate fiction and non-fiction in reading to your kids, there are several ways to do that. First of all, you tell them that the Bible is not just a story book, but is really true. You can also avoid talking in funny voices like you may do for fairy tales and other stories and use a more serious expression and tone for the Bible. Make sure they sit up and listen to show respect for the Bible when it is read. After you read, point out important points and talk about what that meant to the people living in those times as well as what it means for us today. As my dad always said, the Bible was not written to us, but it was written for us. So talk about who it was written to and how they lived. Read additional books and other resources to learn about how people lived in Bible times and about the evidence there is for the historicity of the Bible. Talk about Biblical doctrine, various Biblical accounts, and evidence for the Bible's truth in front of your children and with your children. If they have questions, take them seriously and do your best to answer them. If you don't know, find out. If there isn't a clear answer, don't be afraid to say that, however. Honestly telling them that is far better than giving a faulty pat answer or telling them not to question. The Bible can stand up to any scrunity, so you don't need to fear questions. Also, you may want to (once your children are old enough) find out what skeptics are saying about the Bible, the "errors" they think they have found, and teach your children to debunk them. All of these will help teach your children that the Bible is different from other books and prepare them to defend their faith in a hostile world.Lindsay Haroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13094965953749825163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-16137829563305723802012-05-30T16:06:06.053-04:002012-05-30T16:06:06.053-04:00I am a mother, a homeschooling parent, a children&...I am a mother, a homeschooling parent, a children's minister, a praise and worship minister and woman striving to be after God's heart. I LOVE THIS!!! I still struggle with not reading the Word as a storybook. I pray I teach my children well to stand up for what they believe!Summernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-5335006616620133042012-05-30T15:45:13.460-04:002012-05-30T15:45:13.460-04:00Thanks for stopping by, Amanda!Thanks for stopping by, Amanda!Lindsay Haroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13094965953749825163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-19459641615666144142012-05-30T15:24:24.975-04:002012-05-30T15:24:24.975-04:00I've never connected these before, but I'm...I've never connected these before, but I'm glad you have! I completely agree. It is tricky trying to retrain myself to stop using words like "Bible story" and repeatedly just reading excerpts to my kids instead of emphasizing the bigger picture. I've often wondered how to best separate fiction from nonfiction in our reading time together.Ashleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17594218679586757197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-41014622336367551712012-05-30T15:07:31.821-04:002012-05-30T15:07:31.821-04:00Yes. Yes. Yes. That is all. :-)Yes. Yes. Yes. That is all. :-)GAHCindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468246525104936898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-17680501384210760602012-05-30T14:43:10.674-04:002012-05-30T14:43:10.674-04:00Great points. Biblical illiteracy is rampant in ou...Great points. Biblical illiteracy is rampant in our country. Context in history and in the great story of redemption is so often overlooked when teaching the Bible to our kids. They understand more than we give them credit for - give them the information!<br /><br />Thanks for linking up at The Pelsers and Kids in the Word Wednesday.Amanda @ The Pelsershttp://thepelsers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-69726685641737267942012-05-30T08:03:37.022-04:002012-05-30T08:03:37.022-04:00Absolutely! The Biblical texts should be (and have...Absolutely! The Biblical texts should be (and have been) subject to the same rigorous academic study as any other ancient document. What's more, they pass on every front. We have secular documents that confirm many of the details given in the Bible. We have archaeological support for many of its claims. We have multiple independent documents and document fragments of different ages that show that the text has been faithfully preserved over time. The text itself shows remarkable internal agreement in spite of being written by about 40 different authors over a period of about 1500 years. <br /><br />All of these facts (and others) prove the authenticity of the Biblical account as an accurate historical document. Obviously, not every claim in the Bible has been (or even can be) verified independently, but in every instance where it has been tested, it has been verified. This gives us great confidence that it is trustworthy in instances where no verification exists. Also, many skeptics who have undertaken to disprove the Bible on historical grounds have ultimately come to believe it because the case for its historical authenticity is profound.Lindsay Haroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13094965953749825163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-53034311386511335062012-05-30T00:16:12.069-04:002012-05-30T00:16:12.069-04:00Is it ok to subject Biblical writings to the same ...Is it ok to subject Biblical writings to the same academic rigor that we do other writings before we teach it as history? If so, then I would agree. If we can't talk about who might have actually written it, why, when, etc., then I would object to teaching it as history.tirelesstravelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11511433466998845559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576985008275511255.post-60091948224706214792012-05-29T19:55:50.107-04:002012-05-29T19:55:50.107-04:00This is a great summary of topic that's been o...This is a great summary of topic that's been on my mind for years. I believe that many churches are failing our young people by leaving them ill-prepared for future challenges to their faith. In particular, when our Sunday Schools teach "Bible stories" to our kids in much the same way that we tell fairy tales to them, why should we be be surprised to see those kids reject the Bible as historically accurate later in life? The Sunday School Fairy Tale approach should be systematically rejected in every church.Doug Haroldnoreply@blogger.com